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Post by Tiki-Torch on Aug 3, 2006 15:28:26 GMT -5
Okay, I expect this may bring some debate. I'm hoping it will. This is such a strong subject of today with the conflicts of religion and evolution and so forth. Is there life after death? Is there Heaven and Hell? Do we just get reborn according to our deeds? Or do we simply stop existing after death?
Discuss.
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Post by blondie91 on Aug 3, 2006 21:37:06 GMT -5
My beliefs are based off the Bible in regards to life after death. If you're saved and have accepted Jesus into your heart, then Heaven...and if not, Hell.
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Post by Mira on Aug 3, 2006 23:45:26 GMT -5
I tend to take a biblical viewpoint towards "life after death," as well, but I believe that even if you don't accept Jesus Christ as your savior, you can still be saved. My best friend is Wiccan and while respects Christianity does not accept it as her own faith. She is one of the most sweet-natured, good-hearted people I have ever known, though, and I love her deeply. I could never picture her going to Hell. In fact, it is my firm belief that Judas Iscariot didn't even go to Hell. I believe that Jesus is merciful and loving enough that he can even forgive the non-believers. This is just a bit of a silly idea my friends and I came up with (but still pertains to the topic at hand). I'm a fairly easy-going Christian, my bf is Wiccan (like I stated before), and another one of my friends is Muslim. We've all agreed that when we die and go to heaven (assuming we all go to heaven... ;D) that we will "cover" for each other. For instance, if it turns out that Muslim is the correct religion, then my Muslim friend is going to say, "Mohamad, cut Mirablick and Nikki a little slack. They weren't thinking right." Of course, there are all kinds of variables that contradict this idea, but it keeps me and my friends feeling happy and secure. ;D lol. Hey, if you want to read something really interesting on death, check out either of these two books by Mitch Albom: Tuesdays with Morrie or The Five People You Meet in Heaven. The first one is all about an old college professor who is facing death and shares his wisdom with an old student. The latter is a book about a man who dies and meets five significant people who influenced his life (even in the smallest way) before he goes to heaven. They're both extremely interesting and, in my opinion, make death a little less scary. (Sorry if the last bit fell a little off topic; it still pertains to death, though...)
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Post by Nova Flame on Aug 4, 2006 5:50:21 GMT -5
To answer the question of life and death, you first have to decide what your premise is: is the Bible completely true or is it not completely true? I’m using this premise because Christianity is the only religion (that I’m aware of) that relies on faith alone in the works of another person, Jesus Christ, to get to heaven. The Bible has to be completely true, because if there is one thing wrong then the whole system falls apart because there is potential for another ting wrong. If the Bible is completely true, however, that means there is only one way to heaven and everybody else is wrong.
Assuming the Bible is true, that leaves two conclusions that trip people up. The first is the nature of God. People focus on the mercy and love of God so much that they believe that He’ll let anybody into heaven, but they forget that God is also holy and just. A righteous, holy God cannot allow sin into His presence and therefore sent Christ down to earth as a perfect sacrifice to take the sin of people. But He doesn’t force this choice on us, and thereby it is a gift we have to choose to accept. By accepting, Christ takes our sin and we are viewed as God views Christ: perfect. God’s mercy and love is not giving us what we deserve, which is hell because we all are sinners, because of the sacrifices of Christ. This therefore also satisfies His holiness and righteousness.
The second trap that people fall into is what other people think. Society today talks about toleration of other people’s beliefs, but the moment someone spouts off that Christ is the only way, they are instantly offended. If a house is on fire and you have a loved one in there, would you leave them there because you didn’t want to hurt their feelings? No, you would show them the door out (and practically drag them there, I might add), but ultimately it’s their choice to walk through it. And because we all make that choice, for better or for worse, we are all going to answer for it individually.
With all that said, I’m going to move onto the premise if the Bible is flawed. The question is then who is right? If it’s based on the amount of good I’ve done, then how will I know that I’ve done enough? What if Hitler did a ton of good before he started WWII; does that mean it all balances out in the end and he goes to heaven after all? What about the radical Muslims? They believe if they kill us, they will go to heaven. What happens when you throw out the Bible is that right and wrong become relative. “What may be my truth may not necessarily be your truth” kind of thinking persists, but the only way the good vs. evil argument works is when there is someone who can absolutely decide what is good and evil. And that person is God, which brings us back to His righteousness and holiness and how He can’t tolerate sin.
That leads to a whole slew of other questions, though, such as the omnipotence and omniscience of God, and the purpose of evil, which can’t be discussed in this post.
P.S. I highly suggest reading Blondie’s and Marshmellow’s homepages for the plan of salvation and the verses associated with it.
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Post by Tiki-Torch on Aug 5, 2006 21:57:34 GMT -5
But what if we take on that only parts of the Bible are true because some of it could not apply to today? Would that mean that perhaps the plan for salvation is a little different and if we do enough good then God will let us into Heaven after all? That would mean we'd simply have to do more good than bad. And what about the Sacrments and so forth? Aren't there other ways aside from Jesus, even if the Bible is completely true?
Mira, what if Mohamad doesn't care? What if he decides not to listen to one of his many followers? Why would he listen to a simple believer, anyway? What's more is that you are saying you believe something that you know is not true simply to live under the guise of happiness and security? I'd rethink things if that is the case. I can understand not wanting to hurt your friends's feelings, and they not wanting to hurt yours, and so not really sitting down and deciding which one of the three is right.
Great arguments, people. Let's continue, I'd like to see where this could go to.
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Post by Nova Flame on Aug 6, 2006 2:36:42 GMT -5
Well, let's go back to the argument if the Bible is absolutely true or not absolutely true. For one thing, if the Bible is completely true, then when Jesus said in John 14:6 (KJV) that He is "THE way, THE truth, and THE life: no man cometh unto the Father BUT BY ME" (capitalizations mine) means that he is the only way to heaven. Continuing along those same lines, in Romans 6:23 it says that "the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" and in Romans 3:23 states "for ALL have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (capitalization mine) and in Isaiah 64:6 Isaiah states "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away". Logically then, if the Bible is entirely true, then everybody who has ever lived (except Jesus Christ, because the Bible says He was perfect) has sinned and because of their sin their good works are seen as no more than filthy rags. And since the payment of sin is death, that means everybody is bound for a Godless, Christless eternity in hell unless saved by the blood of Christ.
On the other hand, if only parts of the Bible is true, and good outweighs the bad, you still need an absolute being saying what is right and what is wrong otherwise everything is relative. If, in the process, God will let people in because of their good works, then that must mean He is no longer completely holy and just. If we eliminate those aspects from His character, it can lead to accusations of Him playing favorites and we bring Him down to our level. Do we really want a God that's just like His creations? Or do we want someone who is involved in our lives who wants the best for us without being partial in the process?
A quick question I would like to pose specifically is how do parts of the Bible not apply to us today? Tiki, you've thrown out several challenging questions; I'd like to know where you stand on all this, too.
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Post by Tiki-Torch on Aug 6, 2006 15:35:45 GMT -5
I've posed these questions simply for the sake of debating. And much of the Bible's writings were to Israel. A lot of the Scriptures deal with the nation as God's chosen people and so on. So how can they apply to us today?
We keep discussing things based on one sole premise, that there is, in fact, a God. But what if there is not? What if man is the product of evolution and natural selection? If this was the case then there is no after life. Scientifically we cannot prove that God exists. Therefore, we cannot prove that there is an afterlife. This would mean there is no Heaven or Hell and when we die that's the end. Our bodies simply decay and become part of the ground again.
Again, I'm going along like this simply for the sake of debate. I stand exactly where you stand, Nova.
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Post by damarshmallow on Aug 13, 2006 15:47:17 GMT -5
If God can't be around sin, then how could you get to God in the first place? That is exactly where Jesus comes in. He died on the cross to wipe away our sins so we wouldn't have to suffer in eternal torment because He loves us so much. Here's something I learned at church camp a couple years ago that kinda gave me a new perspective on the separation of man and God. Man is on one side while God is on the other and there's a gap in between. Things like good works, other religions, and simply because you die don't stretch across the gap, but the only bridge that makes it to the other side is the cross. Jesus is the ONLY way to God like it says in John 14:6 which Nova quoted earlier. If He wasn't and any other religion could get you into heaven then why in the world would God have sent his beloved Son to die a horrible death on the cross?
Some of the stuff that can't really apply to us today would probably be the culture of the times, and that's pretty much it. There was a law that was set by God for men to follow but after a while a lot of people began to just follow it because of the teachings of men, not neccessarily because they wanted to please God. When Jesus came He sacrificed Himself for our sins, and became the fulfillment of the Law which even included Gentiles so we could be saved as well. Jesus wants a personal relationship with everybody, and that's why being a true Christian is about your relationship with Christ, and not about how religious you are.
If man were a product of evolution... My view on that is that I would rather die with Jesus in my heart and find out I was wrong, then die without Jesus and end up in hell.
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