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Post by Hopeless Maiden on Aug 14, 2006 16:46:52 GMT -5
Abortion is a very controvertial topic nowadays, right? There are many people and groups on both sides of the field, and I was wondering everyone's thoughts on this issue.
I think abortion should be an option -- but only as a last resort. If all necessary precautions against pregnancy are taken and it still occurs, I don't see why abortion shouldn't be allowed if the baby is unwanted.
Abortion, while a good means of letting women further their careers and helping them to develop mentally, should not be used as a method of contraception. There are too many women taking the "easy way out". If a woman is in a loving relationship, and there were no precautions made against pregnancy, then what right does she have to terminate a life that she willingly (albeit unwittingly) created with her lover?
There are cases where I believe it is acceptable, though. For instance, in the event of rape, a drunken one-night-stand (that is not meant to be degrading, but it happens), or a teenager accidentally falling pregnant in the middle of high-school. Would a woman want a baby under those circumstances? I think not, for the most part.
What I'm trying to get at is that accidents do happen. In the event of these accidents, abortion should be allowed to happen.
What do you guys think?
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Post by Forest Girl Kaz on Aug 14, 2006 19:23:24 GMT -5
I fully agree with you there.
I believe that it is no one's apart from the woman's right to say what she can and can't do with her body. Having a child is not something to go into lightly, if it is unwanted what kind of life will he/she have? Sure some say to have them adopted but it's easier to say that than to actually do it. The woman/girl may not be able to part with the child once it is born even though she is in noi so state to care for it.
However, I don't think abortions should be given out lightly either, only to be used for last resorts. People using them for contrception really annoys me.
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Post by blondie91 on Aug 14, 2006 20:15:49 GMT -5
I strongly believe that abortion is murder in disguise. Even when a baby isn't fully developed, it is still a living thing...it's just a living thing that is completely helpless. If a female doesn't want the child then she could put it up for adoption, even if she was raped. At least with adoption the child has a chance to live and do something with their lives. Who knows how many people that could have done great things for the world never had a chance to accomplish those things because their parents made the decision to have them killed before they were even born?
A woman does have a right to choose what she does with her body and if she chooses to undergo such things that she knows full well might lead to the possibility of becoming pregnant, then how is it fair to the child conceived to have its life ended just because the mother wasn't ready and couldn't handle the responsibility or didn't want it? Sure, it'd be the same as if it had never been conceived but before that point it wasn't even alive. Once it gains that life, how is it right to take that away? How would you like it if someone else could make such a decision and end your life?
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Post by damarshmallow on Aug 14, 2006 20:20:47 GMT -5
Honestly, I'm against abortion...Even when it comes to last resorts. Unless the girl/woman is raped, she CHOSE to sleep with the dude; sober or not. I believe that abortion is murder. It doesn't matter that the baby hasn't entered the world yet, but it is still alive. Teenagers don't accidentally get pregnant during high school. Yeah they may get pressured to go against their better judgement, but if they choose to go to bed with someone then it's their choice.
That's just some of my thoughts though.
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Post by jupiterlightning on Aug 14, 2006 22:27:37 GMT -5
I'm against abortion since it's basically murder. If the woman chose to sleep with someone, then I believe that accidentally conceiving a child should be their lesson to wait. If they don't want the child, then they need to put it up for adoption and let the child have a life at least. Who knows, maybe that child could end up doing something great for the world.
Even when a woman is raped, they still need to give this child a life, too. It's not the baby's fault, it's the criminal's fault and surely they would be severely punished for it.
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Post by Hopeless Maiden on Aug 15, 2006 1:34:38 GMT -5
First off, lemme say that I'm thrilled that so many people responded to the topic so soon. ;D Well, Kaz... it seems we're outnumbered in this debate. First off, I want to address a few of the comments in the posts. I agree completely with Kaz when she said: - Having a child is not something to go into lightly, if it is unwanted what kind of life will he/she have? Sure some say to have them adopted but it's easier to say that than to actually do it. The woman/girl may not be able to part with the child once it is born even though she is in no so state to care for it.
[/i][/li][/ul] What kind of life would the child have? Would you subject a child to a home of resentment and bitterness? Because that's more than likely what would happen. Blondie said: - Even when a baby isn't fully developed, it is still a living thing...it's just a living thing that is completely helpless. If a female doesn't want the child then she could put it up for adoption, even if she was raped.
We're not talking about a baby here. We're talking bout a foetus. There's a difference between the two. The law does not recognise a foetus as a baby until it has been fully expelled from the uterus. That means, until it is completely born. But think about it; could you live with a constant reminder of what happened to you for nine (or so) months after the rape? Could you put yourself through that pain and shame? Before any of you say "Yes, I could.", stop and seriously think. Think about the pain, the shame, and the humilliation. I'm sure there have been many women that have been driven to suicide over such a case. Marshmallow made an interesting point is saying: - Unless the girl/woman is raped, she CHOSE to sleep with the dude; sober or not.
[/i][/li][/ul] While this may be the case, alcohol is a drug, and just like any kind of illicit drug, has mind-altering effects when consumed. The drug in alcohol is called "ethyl", and is a depressant. That means that motor functions and thoughts are slowed and slurred. It also impairs risk-judgement, like just about any drug out there. So, yes; She did choose to sleep with him - but she was not in her right frame of mind. Would you condemn a woman to live with something that she did not want and happened just because she wasn't thinking straight? Jupiter stated: - It's not the baby's fault, it's the criminal's fault and surely they would be severely punished for it.
[/i][/li][/ul] Six words: "The-criminal-is-not-always-caught"! I refer you to the above argument I gave Blondie; Could you do it? Could you live with that reminder? You all (Blondie, Marshmallow, and Jupiter) seem to share the same belief that a foetus is a human being. That, under law, is not true. The following quotes suport this argument: - "Under English law, a foetus is not recognised as being a separate person from its mother. It has no rights independent of its mother until it is born alive and has an independent existence."
- "The Supreme Court of Canada held that according to the current state of the law in Canada, the foetus is not recognized as a legal or juridical person. A pregnant woman and her unborn child are one..."
- "...when the constitution and the laws speak of a ‘person’(other than artificial persons e.g. companies and statutory authorities), they mean an existing natural person, an existing human being and not a yet to be born child being or a human foetus in conception."
[/i] [/li][/ul] I hope none of you feel as if I'm attacking your values and opinions; I am doing nothing of the sort! I am simply stating the facts. I value your input highly and respect your views on the issue! Uh... I think that's all I wanted to cover...
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Post by Forest Girl Kaz on Aug 15, 2006 9:33:57 GMT -5
Hopeless just pretty much took any other words right out of my mouth there lol.
I'd like to add though, it is easy to say and live by the beliefs that if you were raped you could have the child, but could you really? Putting your body through nine months of stress just to recieve more emotional and physical pain by the end of it. Also, think of it from the child's point of view, yes they were given the chance to live but don't you think they'd find out the truth one day. I don't know about you but if I was told today "You were concieved through rape, your mother couldn't bring herself to keep you." I'd probably break down.
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Post by blondie91 on Aug 15, 2006 10:33:28 GMT -5
Ok, so I think y'all have convinced me to agree somewhat with your view point in regards to a rape, but I have another of your points to argue with.
Yes, alcohol does mess with people's minds and though the solution may simply be not to consume it at all, a person needs to realize before they drink it what effects it will have on them. If a girl goes off and has sex and gets pregnant under the influence of alcohol, then it all goes back to the fact that she had a choice in the matter before her judgement was even clouded, and that choice was to drink an acoholic beverage that would disorient her rational thought patterns.
Though a foetus may not be classified as its own being under law but once again, abortion is not even giving it a chance at a real life. You can't call a foetus dead though now can you? Not when it's forming inside the mother?
There's no need to feel as though you're attacking anyones values or opinions. This is a debate topic after all and just as we have the right to express our opinions on the matter, so do you.
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Post by Forest Girl Kaz on Aug 15, 2006 11:04:05 GMT -5
Yes, alcohol does mess with people's minds and though the solution may simply be not to consume it at all, a person needs to realize before they drink it what effects it will have on them. If a girl goes off and has sex and gets pregnant under the influence of alcohol, then it all goes back to the fact that she had a choice in the matter before her judgement was even clouded, and that choice was to drink an acoholic beverage that would disorient her rational thought patterns. I'll agree with you on that point, if a woman knows she's going to be drinking she should watch her limits and in the case of young teenagers, well, not to sound like an old woman but they really shouldn't have been drinking in the first place. I'm still not against an abortion in these cases though but I can see how it would be their own fault, this goes back to my saying how I don't like people using abortions as they please. I think if they made the effor to use protection then it depends on the situation.
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Post by Mira on Aug 15, 2006 11:27:22 GMT -5
I've read through the previous posts, and here is what I think. Even if the state/fed don't recognize the fetus as a living thing (hopeless, could you cite your sources please? I'd just like to check out those quotes in context), on a personal level, one must recognize that the fetus eventually does develop into a baby. If I were pregnant, I know I would consider the fetus a living thing; that's my unborn child!
I agree with (I think it's everybody about now) that abortion should not be used as a method of contraception. I've witnessed other people use it that way, and it's truly disgusted me. It's not a casual matter and should not be treated lightly.
I do think people make mistakes, though. We can refer back to the drunken night stand as an example. A girl may have a drink knowing well all the consequences of getting drunk. Nobody's perfect, and sometimes pregnancy may result. How can you condemn that girl to giving life to a child, though, especially if she's still in high school?
I guess it's not impossible to have a child in high school and still be happy. My ex got one of his girlfriends pregnant, and they decided to have the baby when they were in high school. Neither of them have their diplomas now, and they both struggle on their parents' income... but, from what I know, they're happy together and love their child dearly. People just make different choices in life I guess. On that note, I think an abortion should be an option.
Blondie mentioned in one of her posts that if you are raped, you can still have the baby. Adoption laws are so tricky and tedious, though, that I don't think that would be a wise or simple decision to make in regard to a "rape" baby, though. Kaz also mentioned the pain and suffering a woman would go through during those nine months... I, personally, think that abortion should be allowed in cases of rape, which ultimately makes me I guess (having re-read my entire post) for abortion in special cases.
Let me interject my own personal view now. If I were ever to be raped, I don't think I would be able to have an abortion. Obviously, it's very difficult to imagine such stressful circumstances, but just being aware of my womanhood makes it hard for me to think of giving up any child. Whether that baby be a result of a one-night stand or a long, committed intimacy, the child would still be a part of me. I don't think I could ever have an abortion. And on that note, having stated my support for abortion, I don't think I would agree with a woman's choice to have one. I may tolerate it (like I stated above), but to agree with it is another story.
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Post by damarshmallow on Aug 15, 2006 13:22:09 GMT -5
Mariblick, you said: "I do think people make mistakes, though. We can refer back to the drunken night stand as an example. A girl may have a drink knowing well all the consequences of getting drunk. Nobody's perfect, and sometimes pregnancy may result. How can you condemn that girl to giving life to a child, though, especially if she's still in high school?"
Yeah, nobody is perfect...BUT if the girl makes the mistake then that mistake shouldn't be the end of her child's life. It may not be easy, but it's up to the girl to make either the right or the wrong decision. A foetus may not be born and just cuz it's not called a person under law... It's someone's life! There just not born yet, and haven't developed into someone who can speak for themselves. I guess in rape cases I'd tolerate it, but that's it.
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Post by Hopeless Maiden on Aug 15, 2006 16:36:44 GMT -5
Sure, Mira. Here are the sites and references (in order of the quotes): I'm not sure if that's what you wanted, but a quick search for the word foetus (in the sites) should find you the quotes. A quote of Mira's reminded me of something: - My ex got one of his girlfriends pregnant, and they decided to have the baby when they were in high school. Neither of them have their diplomas now, and they both struggle on their parents' income... but, from what I know, they're happy together and love their child dearly.
I had a friend who was in that situation. She got pregnant, and decided to have the baby, with or without her boyfriend. (Of course, he ended up leaving her but that's beside the point.) Last I heard, she was making a life for herself and her son somewhere in the 'burbs, and was very happy. That was even after she was pressured to have an abortion by her family and friends. I would like to ask Marshmallow what exactly she meant by this quote: - It may not be easy, but it's up to the girl to make either the right or the wrong decision.
But I'll answer it as how it came across to me. I'm working on the premise that you mean " right or wrong decision" by your personal beliefs. Is there really a right or wrong decision in something like this? There is only the best decision for the mother in my opinion. If getting the abortion is something that she desperately wants and the baby would destroy her life if she didn't, then I'd support her (except where there was no effort to prevent pregnancy). Here, I will move onto my next point. What if the child had some disfiguring disease or defect? Would you let it suffer? Or would you terminate it to save it from suffering? As cold and heartless as abortion may seem, it can actually be an act of compassion. If your twin babies were joined at the head, would you put the through that? Before you say "just separate them", think. Joined at the head. There's every chance that they would share a brain. Separating conjoined twins is tricky at the best of times. If they were joined by the torso, maybe, just maybe, I would give birth and have them separated. But this also depends on the organs they share. It would be too risky if they had one heart between them, or one brain. In cases like that, one would not be able to survive without the other. Also, what if your baby had some sort of deformity? I don't mean something like a disfigured hand, but a serious, life-altering/threatening deformity, such as a non-developed heart or a deformity that caused it's life to be in danger. And what about miscarriages? If the baby died in the womb (as in it's heart and brain activity ceased) during the first trimester (because thats the only time you can get an abortion to my knowledge - correct me if I'm wrong), would you want to go through the rest of the pregnancy, knowing that the child is dead? A dead baby is only kept going by the mother, and that is only when it is in the womb. So, before you reply, stop to think that abortion could be an act of compassion, and not just " murder in disguise", as Blondie referred to it in her first post. Think that it could be better for all those involved in cases like these.
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Post by blondie91 on Aug 15, 2006 20:06:43 GMT -5
Those are special cases and I am slightly inclined to agree with you on the fact that an abortion in that situation would be done for a good reason.
If the baby died in the womb then there's no point to keep it there because it's dead and doesn't have a chance at life.
I don't believe that the option of abortion should be open to individuals who screw around. If the mother is not ready to have a baby and ends up gettin' pregnant for her poor choices, then I don't see how it's right for her to be able to have an abortion. In that case it is in fact murder in disguise as far as I see it.
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Post by damarshmallow on Aug 15, 2006 21:46:50 GMT -5
I'd say that I agree with blondie in her last comment. What I meant by the phrase: "It may not be easy, but it's up to the girl to make either the right or the wrong decision." was actually when it came to alcohol and sex. Sorry I didn't make myself clear.
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